For more information about Bernie Dehler see https://www.oregonlive.com/my-portland/2014/10/does_god_exist_debate_on_tue_1.html , SecHummer , and https://archive.org/details/ihavecancerfutureuncertainpart1of2 .
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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99
If not the WT/JW relgion where else are 'we' to go? Why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism?
by Disillusioned JW insometimes jws wonder if the wt/jw is not the truth, 'then where else are we to go?
' i say 'why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism and why not a secular philosophy which teaches a way of life?
' what do you folks say?.
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Disillusioned JW
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99
If not the WT/JW relgion where else are 'we' to go? Why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism?
by Disillusioned JW insometimes jws wonder if the wt/jw is not the truth, 'then where else are we to go?
' i say 'why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism and why not a secular philosophy which teaches a way of life?
' what do you folks say?.
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Disillusioned JW
Yes jhine the NT Bible (at John 6:68) does say to "whom would we go" and the WT did misapply it as to 'where else are we to go?'. I used the WT phrase (or a paraphrase of it) because I am addressing the issue of what set of beliefs/convictions should JW people (and former JW people) adopt if they cease to believe in the JW form of Christianity and thus end up not believing in Christianity at all and end up not believing in religion at all.
Most of the people who converted to the JW religion (at least those who were not raised in the religion) did so because they were convinced that all other religions (including all other forms of Christianity) are false. I am encouraging them to accept atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism as truth. I naturally would have become an atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalist, or a deist, prior to age 15 if I had never been raised to believe in religion. I wish I had become an atheist by age 15.
waton, in the situation you provide the WT offers the reassurance that though you will die, you will very likely be resurrected to eternal life on a paradise Earth, or to eternal life in heaven with Jesus Christ and Jehovah/YHWH God. Regarding the scientific naturalist point of view you, as it pertains to the situation you mention, are correct. Though it is depressing, it involves acceptance of reality. Some scientific naturalists who are also secular humanists would seek physician-assisted suicide in the situation you mention (if legal for them), rather than to drag out the dying process to its bitter end. Those scientific naturalists who are also secular Buddhists might have better copying skills in dealing with the dying process.
Rather than adopt a supernaturalistic religious view, and thus a false view, I would rather continue be convinced of the reality of scientific naturalism. If my future dying process is an unbearable miserable one (one in which pain killers and meditation and psychological counseling don't make tolerable) I might choose physician-assisted suicide. Physician-assisted suicide is legal in parts of the USA, including in my very liberal state (at least under state law).
waton, for me the deciding to be an atheistic scientific naturalist was not primarily about whether it is comforting, but about whether it is true. I am convinced it is true, despite the realization that I am truly a mortal with no chance of eternal life at all.
Before I became an atheist I met an engineer (who worked at Intel) who had obtained an evangelical theological degree but later became an evolutionist, an atheist, a secular humanist, and a philosophical naturalist. He created a discussion group on meetup.com in which he organized debates between himself and Christians. He tried to convince people of evolution and that there is no God/god. he produced numerous videos. He wrote and self published a book (or booklet) called "Modern Science and Philosophy Destroy Christian Theology". He also became a minister of Humanism and he became a director of one congregation of the Sunday Assembly. Largely due to online discussions I had with one nontheistic ex-Christian in the meetup group I became a nontheist, a naturalist (except that for a year I wasn't sure if a deistic god exists), and a type of secular humanist. A year later became a convinced atheist. The man (Bernie Dehler) who created the discussion group later got a very aggressive form of brain cancer which was terminal (no cure exists for it, none survive from it).
He looked very sad after getting cancer but (to my knowledge) he remained an atheist and a naturalist to the end of his life. Despite me being well aware of such dire end of life situations I am still an atheistic scientific naturalist.
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If not the WT/JW relgion where else are 'we' to go? Why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism?
by Disillusioned JW insometimes jws wonder if the wt/jw is not the truth, 'then where else are we to go?
' i say 'why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism and why not a secular philosophy which teaches a way of life?
' what do you folks say?.
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Disillusioned JW
The article called "A Skeptic’s Ghost Story:Ghost hunting with science and skepticism" is very good and is located at https://thinkingispower.com/a-skeptics-ghost-story/ .
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Will Ukraine win?
by Fisherman ini was under the impression that it was going to be a short war, that russia’s military would indeed subdue ukraine’s forces quickly but that is not happening.
seems that russia’s military power is much less than it’s reputed to be.
no guess how it will all end..
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Disillusioned JW
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum which says the following. "The referendum was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine.[13] It is not recognized by most countries,[14] mainly due to the presence of Russian forces.[15] Thirteen members of the United Nations Security Council voted in favor of a resolution declaring the referendum invalid, but Russia vetoed it and China abstained.[16][17] A United Nations General Assembly resolution was later adopted, by a vote of 100 in favor vs. 11 against with 58 abstentions, which declared the referendum invalid and affirmed Ukraine's territorial integrity.[15]"
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Will Ukraine win?
by Fisherman ini was under the impression that it was going to be a short war, that russia’s military would indeed subdue ukraine’s forces quickly but that is not happening.
seems that russia’s military power is much less than it’s reputed to be.
no guess how it will all end..
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Disillusioned JW
Putin's actions, through his control of the Russian military, upon Ukraine are pure evil! See https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/24/ukraine-putin-referendums/ ("With Kalashnikov rifles, Russia drives the staged vote in Ukraine") and https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/09/1127691 ("War crimes have been committed in Ukraine conflict, top UN human rights inquiry reveals"). I now intensely hate Putin, whereas before (for more than 10 years) I was merely angry of Putin. It is imperative that Russia's war against Ukraine be defeated!
slimboyfat, the crimes that the USA have done in modern times are drastically less evil than those perpetrated by the U.S.S.R./Russia in modern times! In contrast, many (if not most) of the military actions of the USA were at least done with UN Security Council authorization.
Russia's current attempt to annex portions of Ukraine by referendums held at gunpoint in Ukraine are criminal acts (under both Ukrainian law and under international law)! The referendum in Crimea in 2014 pertaining to Russian annexation of it was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum .
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It was good enough for C.T. Russell.....
by BoogerMan in....but not for jw's!.
w70 4/15 p. 250 -"in 1870 charles taze russell...was not satisfied with the sectarian [jw's are sectarian] explanations of the bible given him, so he started a bible-study class with several of his friends....".
km 9/07 p. 3 question box - "does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of witnesses who meet together to engage in scriptural research or debate?
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Disillusioned JW
The KM article (as posted on the org's website) also mentions the following.
"Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views. They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature.
... It is commendable for individuals to want to use their thinking ability in support of the good news. However, no personal pursuit should detract from what Jesus Christ is accomplishing through his congregation on earth today.
... For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures, “All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial,” and our other publications, such as those that discuss the prophecies found in the Bible books of Daniel, Isaiah, and Revelation."
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Is Jehovah WITHHOLDING something from Jesus?
by BoogerMan in(matthew 28:18) jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.. (1 corinthians 15:27) for god “subjected all things under his feet.”.
according to the washtowel, jesus is not going to have all of jehovah's power & authority, because he'll [jesus] need 144,000 dead/resurrected humans to help him run the earth: .
w08 5/15 p. 15 par.
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Disillusioned JW
According to at least the gospel book called "According to Matthew" (at Matthew 19:28) Jesus told his 12 apostles (yes, even Judas) that they "will sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel." The book of Revelation says that 144,000 virgin Jewish males (12,000 from each of 12 tribes) will serve as kings and priests.
Does this mean that according to the scriptures that Jesus Christ will delegate some of the authority which God the Father gave to him (according to the scriptures)? Or, is the NT Bible contradicting itself on this matter? -
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It was good enough for C.T. Russell.....
by BoogerMan in....but not for jw's!.
w70 4/15 p. 250 -"in 1870 charles taze russell...was not satisfied with the sectarian [jw's are sectarian] explanations of the bible given him, so he started a bible-study class with several of his friends....".
km 9/07 p. 3 question box - "does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of witnesses who meet together to engage in scriptural research or debate?
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Disillusioned JW
Notice that though the quote of the KM article says that “the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse independent groups of Witnesses doing independent Bible research, the quote does not say the “the faithful and discreet slave” forbids or condemns JWs from doing such. It does not state a prohibition on JWs doing such research.
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If not the WT/JW relgion where else are 'we' to go? Why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism?
by Disillusioned JW insometimes jws wonder if the wt/jw is not the truth, 'then where else are we to go?
' i say 'why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism and why not a secular philosophy which teaches a way of life?
' what do you folks say?.
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Disillusioned JW
For some sources of information of how abiogenesis took place (or could have taken place) see the following web pages.
- https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/02/abio-j02.html (this is of a socialist web site). The article is called "A pair of experiments reveal new details regarding the origin of life on Earth". It says in part the following.
'It has long been hypothesized that the origin of life on Earth involved the evolution of molecules, floating in the “primordial soup” 4 billion years ago, that assembled themselves into structures that self-replicate. Two recently reported research projects bring us closer to an understanding of possible mechanisms by which that took place.
... the results of these two research projects contribute to the demystification of the origin of life and reinforce our understanding that living things, including humans, do not embody some mysterious “divine spark,” as religion would have it, but instead are the product of natural, scientifically understandable laws of the material world.'
- https://singularityhub.com/2022/04/17/oldest-fossils-yet-suggest-life-on-earth-began-much-earlier-than-we-thought/ . The article in part says the following.
'On an outcrop of exposed volcanic and sedimentary rock on the eastern shores of Hudson Bay in northern Quebec, researchers have unearthed what may be the earliest fossilized life forms ever discovered. These microbial ancestors lived between 3.75 and 4.28 billion years ago, only 300 million years after the Earth formed—a blink of an eye in geologic timescales. If life developed this rapidly on Earth, it suggests that abiogenesis—the process by which non-living matter becomes a living organism—is potentially “easy” to achieve, and life in the universe may be more common than we thought.
... The researchers are confident that even if they are abiotic, they still “could indicate complex prebiotic forms on early Earth.”
... The researchers are confident that even if they are abiotic, they still “could indicate complex prebiotic forms on early Earth.” '
- See the two page article which begins at https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/scientists-recreated-classic-origin-of-life-experiment-and-made-a-new-discovery/ . That article mentions that Jeffrey Bada "re-analyzed the original samples" from certain experiments done by Stanley Miller and Bada "found this environment produced 22 amino acids, five amines, and several hydroxylated molecules."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_L._Bada says that between 1980 and 2009 Bada "was Director of NASA Specialized Center of Research and Training (NSCORT) in Exobiology. ... He and his team also developed a Mars Organic Analyzer (MOA), which is a microfabricated capillary electrophoresis (CE) instrument for sensitive amino acid biomarker analysis." -
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Two Bible teachings JW's DON'T know about....
by BoogerMan in....but the november 2022 study watchtower will definitely instruct them.. 1) god's name is jehovah!.
2) jehovah is using an earthly organization to do his will - not jesus!.
in study article 45, 'jehovah' is mentioned at least 60 times.
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Disillusioned JW
Regarding where the Bible says that the kingdom rule of the Messiah will be, notice that the Life Application Study Bible, New American Standard Bible--Updated Edition says the following in its commentary on Psalms 110:2, in reference to "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."
"110:2 prophesies of Christ's reign on the earth (Revelation 6--9)".